Beyond 8×7 and 8×8

Dear Friend,

image from www.smh.com.au

The current economic downturn  the world over has caused much anxiety, especially to many old people in the Westernised society.

I say “Westernised society” because the family value system is that of “nuclear family”, consisting of only two generations, i.e. parents and kids (and maybe with a pet thrown in).

Then the kids leave, dropping by their parents’ occassionally during their holidays. And the parents probably have to make “appointments”  before visiting their kids (especially those who have their own families by then). They can’t just simply “walk in”. Only 30 years back, grand-parents, parents, children and grand-children would mix freely and often stay under the same roof.

In the animal world, the mother’s love is the greatest. They take great care of their off-springs until they are ready to fend for themselves.  There is no expectation of return of love and it never happen anyway.

  • Human society is different because we have cultures. In one of my earliest postings we saw that Human Beings receive more Heavenly Qi because our heads are always the highest point of the body. For the rest of the animals the head is parallel to the ground thereby receiving more Earthly Qi, good for the body but less so for the brain. Just do a simple experiment walking on all fours, you will find it is very difficult to think, especially on abstract things.

Lets take a look on what 孔子 (“Kong zi”, Confucius) thought about the proper/cultured relationships between people.

There are 5 key relationships :

  1. between the ruler and those serving him (君臣),
  2. between parents and children (父子),
  3. between husband and wife (夫妻),
  4. between the siblings (兄弟),
  5. between friends (朋友).

Many people have distorted view that Confucius teaching is that convenient instrument for the ruling class to suppress the freedom of expression by introducing the concept of 孝 (“xiao”) and 仁 (“ren”).  Some call it male chauvinism.

Reading the Analects (论语, “lun yu”)  with open mind will reveal the opposite. Kong zi himself reminded once and again that  “三人行, 必有我师焉”  (“… there is always something for me to learn when I am in a group of three… “). How can Kong Zi be “stiff” with his views if he possesses this qaulity of open-mindedness ?

  • 孝 (“xiao”) or  “filial piety” is typically translated as “care and love for one’s parents.
  • Strictly speaking, when Confucius talked about “孝”, he has an implicit condition to it, i.e. “父慈子孝” (”fu ci zi xiao”, parental love and chidren’s filial piety), that parents should perform their 父慈.

“孝”, therefore is a response/reciprocity to one’s parental love. (this leads us to think about those parents who did not care for their children; and how their children should respond wrt the principle of “孝”). (Pls see Fen’s comment below). From the perspective of Buddhism, it falls within the realm of  缘 (“yuan”),  so  “孝” still applies.

Unfortunately, in Westernised nuclear family, kids are pampered by “父慈”, but they do not have the benefit of seeing their parents’ daily “孝” performance towards their grand-parents.  So many of these parents will not experience much of  子孝 from their children later on in their lives, or at least that’s a high probability.

Enjoy performing your 父慈, and put a low probability of  子孝 from your kids.

With that mind-set, it is probably mentally easier to venture beyond 8×7 or 8×8 (as per posting Your growth/reproductive pattern.

  • And if you wake up in the morning and got a treat from “子孝”, consider it lucky strikes.

Notes :

1. “Ruler” to Confucius is not the stereotype “authoritative rulers” as what most people would come to associate wrt  rulers in dynastic China.  Just rulers need to possess some qualities that we have addressed in postings   Just Government, 仁政, The Dao of Owning Heaven and Earth , Human being (人).

2. In the original word construction, “孝” consisted of “a young person”, a son,  helping an “older person to walk safely”, to convey the idea of care and love for one’s parents.

3. As for the word “仁” , it has a “people” sign on the left and “2″ on the right, conveying the concept of good/proper relationship between any 2 persons. Therefore “仁” is to always think about others, not on self.

4. In olden days, the concept of “parents” would extend to one’s “teachers”, i.e., teacher/student relationship is as important as that of parent/children relationship. This is of course mostly untrue with modern educational system filled with ”professional” teachers, where it is more about knowledge rather than value system.

5. In  论语 (“lun yu”, The Analects), Chapter 1, one of Confucius’ students, 有子 (”you zi”) recalled Confucius teaching : “….孝弟也者,其為仁之本与…”,  illustrating the two key aspects of  “仁”, i.e., that of “孝” and “弟”.

6. “弟” is the brother/sisterly care and love that one shows towards one’s brothers/sisters or friends/society.

7. In The Analects, Chapter 1 (”On Learning”), Confucius said : “弟子入则孝,出则弟,谨而信,汎爱众,而亲仁,行有余力,则以学文 …..”

Crudely translated, it means
“… as a junior, one should respect /take good care/love one’s parents when at home;

one should respect/take good care/love one’s teachers, seniors and friends when outside;

one should be mindful of one’s language and be trust-worthy; one should be compassionate to all;

and then one should associate oneself with people of good-characters.

When one is able to do all the above and still has extra energy, then go on to pick up some knowledge…”

From above, we can see the great importance Confucius placed on the issue of “how to be a person in terms of one’s conduct versus others”.

He regarded knowledge as secondary to good conduct, or simply put, knowledge possession is not beneficial without equipping oneself with good conduct.

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22 Responses

  1. 父慈子孝固然最好,但如父不慈则应如地子规言道:

    亲爱我 孝何难 亲憎我 孝方贤

    西方社会是不会接受的,但愿在西方社会长大的东方孩子能够有机会明白和实践这个道理。

  2. Just heard this old yet new sermon at church today. When Jesus was asked by a lawyer (or the equivalent of one at that time) (lawyers are the people who want to argue)about what were the most important of the ten commandments (since there were ten and it was difficult to obey all apparently) Jesus replied, the most important commandment is to love the lord your God with all your heart and all your soul, and the second is to love your neighbor as yourself.

    Now we go back to what Confucius said, the 5 key relationships in xy2’s posting. The first important commandment coincides with the first key relationship (i.e. God and the authority in your life, ruler or government); the second commandment coincides with the rest of the 4 relationships. “Neighbor” as mentioned by Jesus meant your brother, your spouse, your friend/colleague, your child- anyone who is around you or in your life. So if your relationship with them is right, then your life is “right” and you will live a happy life.

    So people of old have their wisdom!

    In Chinese, I think they have more words to express the various forms of “love” depending on the relationship, therefore we end up with words like filial piety, but they are essentially words to mean expressions of “love”.
    Of course the word, filial piety conjures an image more of a dry duty rather than love but in reality you really cannot perform filial piety without love.

    My view is that in the East, because of the agricultural background, people live in communities, and each individual is not so much an individual as a member of a community. Therefore living in harmony and at peace with each other and with heaven and earth is very important for everyone’s sake. However, in the Western society , the rights of an individual is stronger than that of the society/community and therefore, whether it be parent-child or husband-wife, they do not function as one body -group in harmony but as two individuals living parallel lives under the same roof.

    By the way , can someone translate the Chinese response by “fen” so we can better understand.

  3. About adoption by lesbians and gay, that is another issue, but in Asia, because of “filial piety”, Asian families have more difficulty coming to terms with adopting children (both for the parents and the adopted child).

    The Western society views and accepts adoption in a different way. My Western friends adopt a child, not for the sake of filial piety or for someone to worship the ancestral grave but more because they feel that they should offer a warm family home to a child less fortunate and also perform a duty to society especially if they are well-to-do.

    I think this is yet another big topic to explore between east and west cultural differences, so will stop here.

  4. Fen,

    tks for commenting on my blog.

    I will take the liberty to translate your comment into English. Hope you don’t mind.

    Ch,

    Fen was quoting a verse from the Chinese classics “弟子规” (“di zi gui”), i.e., “The Principles of Conducting Oneself as Sons/Daughters/Students/Juniors“.

    This is a book compiled from the teachings of Confucius and was meant to be one of the basic books kids should read.

    Before I translate Fen’s quote and comment, it is probably helpful to take a quick look at Confucius’ view on “proper relationship behaviour, i.e. love for others (on various relationships).

    In The Analects, Chapter 1 (“On Learning”), Confucius said : “弟子入则孝,出则弟,谨而信,汎爱众,而亲仁,行有余力,则以学文 …..”

    Crudely translated, it means
    “… as a junior, one should respect /take good care/love one’s parents when at home;

    one should respect/take good care/love one’s teachers, seniors and friends when outside;

    one should be mindful of one’s language and be trust-worthy; one should be compassionate to all;

    and then one should associate oneself with people of good-characters.

    When one is able to do all the above and still has extra energy, then go on to pick up some knowledge…”

    From above, we can see the great importance Confucius placed on the issue of “how to be a person in terms of one’s conduct versus others”.

    He regarded knowledge as secondary to good conduct, or simply put, knowledge possession is not beneficial without equipping oneself with good conduct.

    Coming back to Fen’s quote from “Di Zi Gui” :

    “…亲爱我 孝何难 亲憎我 孝方贤…”, i.e.,
    “… if my parents love me, what difficulty is it for me to reciprocate that;

    if my parents “hates” me, it takes a great-wise man to be able to return this with care and love…”

    What Confucius tried to say is that “孝” is not a trade, like returning somebody’s good favour. That will be easy. The true test of a man’s wisdom and greatness is his ability to perform this act of care/respect/love to somebody who has not been particularly kind to oneself.

    In another instance, Confucius said that one should observe the formal act of remembrance of one’s deceased parents for 3 years.

    This should not be taken at face value, the external act.

    Confucius wanted us to remember that our parents took great care of us, especially in first 3 yrs after birth, when we were the most helpless and vulnerable. Is that then so difficult to remind ourselves of our parents’ greatness for at least 3 years after their passing away ?

    In fact no amount of deeds we can do to reciprocate this greatness.

    Fen commented that Western society does not accept such value system and fen hopes that Asian kids grown up in Western society will be able to appreciate and understand this Oriental wisdom.

    sorry for the long digression.

  5. xy2, thanks for the lengthy explanation, but I wanted to make sure I got the gist of what fen wrote correctly.

    Yes, that is the great difference between Western and Eastern cultures. Like I mentioned earlier in my comments, Western culture looks at each person as an individual, whether it is parent and child, they are not bundled as one but two separate people. In Eastern cultures, a parent and a child are forever connected by a “string” and the child cannot cut off your parents. Western cultures also consider taking care of your children/loving your children as a sacrificial act, not an act to be reciprocated nor should the parents expect it. Eastern parents sometimes EXPECT filial piety (although as mentioned in your comment, Confucius did not mean it to be that way), which is not fair on the child. Don’t forget, children did not asked to be born, it was the parents’ choice. So to impose a “burden” of filial piety on them by expecting them to reciprocate a parent’s love and care is not fair game.

    Because of a misinterpretation of Confucius’ teachings, many of the younger generation are unable to argue with their parents/teachers or point out their parents/teachers’ mistakes for fear of being told that they have violated the teachings of Confucius.

    P.S. I am not saying we should throw our parents out the door. :) :) I am just presenting the other viewpoint.

  6. ch,

    I think the best way to understand Confucius is to read The Analects (“Lun Yu”).
    “Confucianism” in later years, especially in Song Dynasty, was not really his original teachings.

    A lot of people would quote some Confucius sayings to pin-point its shortcoming. I think it is important to look at The Analects as a whole, then these separate quotes/sayings will fall into their right places.
    For instance, Confucius said that “don’t do unto others what you don’t want others to do unto you…”
    From this angle alone, one can easily infer Confucius will never condone authoritarian rule or personality. We can even say this will form a good basis for democracy.

    But we must also bear in mind the then prevailing social background during Confucius’ time. It was the “Warring States”, i.e., it was complete anarchy, there was no rule of law, only rule of jungle and deceptive diplomacy.

    Confucius wanted none of these and wanted those in powers to learn from much earlier leaders like 尧 (“Yao”).
    Yao was one of the 3 early leaders in China just prior to Xia Dynasty (about 2,200 BC).
    Yao ruled/led his community with only one thing in mind, i.e., to improve their livelihood. He did not cling to power by transferring power to his family, rather preferring to select an capable man (舜, “shun”) who command the respect of the community to succeed him. That’s the ideal leader in the eyes of Confucius and he has made quite a few reference to that.

    Also bear in mind that during Confucius’ time, the population in Northern China was very small, probably only a few millions. And we knew that Confucius has 3,000 scholars under him, almost all the top kids in those times.
    If he had yearn for power, he would have long gotten it.
    But that would not be Confucius or his teachings.

    WRT to compassion/love/respect, Confucius has said, as pointed out by yourself, that these feelings should come from within, not as obligation.

  7. ch,

    wrt to Western and/or Eastern cultures that lead to your observation on individual rights, i think the idea of “individual” transcends cultural differences, only the magnitude of it.

    The truth is that human society is made of individuals, they both exist as individuals as well as a community. Stressing one over the other is not healthy for both individuals and the community.

    WRT “individual”, this is a concept that springs out from the notion of “me”.
    If we remove “me”, then the world will be a lot more neutral and easier for connectivity.

    Hope this clarifies.

  8. I think Asian kids these days due to too much western cultural influence must be reminded constantly of Asian values wrt taking care of parents,etc even if parents don’t want to expect it as an obligation.
    Because if parents themselves don’t hammer these values in, no one else will. It is not that sons/daughters must listen to whatever parents have to say, it is the guidance in forming the family values though maybe outdated, that parents must instil in children today amidst all the emphasis on ME society. Caring for another person can be very low priority among other pursuits.

    A simple question … do you expect your son to come back from afar to have a Reunion CNY dinner with the family ? If you tell him now that it is OK if he can’t make it, chances are you are more unlikely to see him! Yeah, we may be able to take care of ourselves, or hire people to take care of us and not to burden our children, and don’t mind not seeing them at all due to inconveniences but still, no harm in hammering some expectations when we age, no ??

  9. When talking about the relationship between parents and sons/daughters, i.e. 父慈子孝 (“fu ci zi xiao”, parental love and children’ filial piety), many people have misunderstood that the traditional Confucius teaching means the children have to always obey their parents (without question). 子孝 is easy if there is “父慈”.

    In Chapter 4 of 论语 (“Lun Yu”), Confucius said : 「事父母幾諫,見志不從,又敬不違,勞而不怨。」,
    i.e. “… to respect and care for one’s parents means to include advising them when they are in the wrong. If the parents refuse to listen, then one should not be confrontational. One should always “respect” one’s parents, worry for them but no blame …”

    Remember the 5 Key relationships mentioned in the posting above ?

    What Confucius tried to say was that we need to exercise prudence and use the appropriate way of communication in different relationship settings, depending on our position vs our counter-party.

    If the counter-party is/are of our parent/parents, if they have committed some wrongs, then the appropriate way is to enlighten them in a “soft” (un-patronising) and appropriate manner. Confucius understood people’s emotion and pride.

    And unless the children can find an effective way of communication so that their parents can listen and accept their advice (when they committed wrongs), it is like saying nothing and therefore 孝 was not properly carried out.

    If the parents refuse to listen the first time around, it is better to soften the tone, change topics and wait for another happier/lighter moment to bring out the issue again so that the mood is better for the parents to accept the advice.

    That is the proper 孝道 (“xiao dao”, the Dao of Filial Piety).

    孝道 does not dictate blind following of parents’ orders, however, it does remind us about the proper way to conduct ourselves when dealing with different relationships.

    Sorry for the long elaboration. It is difficult to address this without going back to the source, i.e. Confucius’ own words. Hearsay on the teachings of Confucius is dangerous.

  10. CH,

    Interesting comparison between Jesus’ commandment & Confucious’ wisdom. :)

  11. CH,

    Interesting comparison between Jesus’ commandment & Confucious’ wisdom! :)

    .

  12. xiaoyao2. Thanks for the clarification. I understand better now.

    Yes, I am sure many teachings of Confucius have been “twisted” along the way and misinterpreted, sometimes due to a translation issue (I mean from classical language to modern) and sometimes perhaps to suit the times or the people (or leader) paying for the translation. This happens for all great teachings. MAN along the way add and subtract some stuff, leading to much misunderstanding later on.

    Yes, I cannot agree with you more, it is about getting the relationships right. Then things will fall into place naturally.

    But like mf commented, we tend to “drum” it into our kids to show filial piety. I hear parents drum into their kids that they SHOULD take care of them when the parents become old. I do not agree with it. Like I said earlier, the kids did not choose to be born nor did they choose their parents, it was the parents who made the decision to bring them to this earth. So to hammer in the idea that it is their duty to take care of you when you get old is unfair.

    However, if the parents did right with the kids and brought them up right, they WILL naturally take care of their parents, without even being asked. :) :)

  13. Huh? My posting above was actually posted out right after CH’s on 8th Mar. After posting, I didn’t see it up, so I rewrite( shorter now because lazy to recall the earlier writings) & click submit again. Hmmm…..now it’s up….time lag???

  14. YL, And I was wondering why you were so quiet!!!

  15. ch said,
    “However, if the parents did right with the kids and brought them up right, they WILL naturally take care of their parents, without even being asked.”

    ch, i sure wish you are right but i have seen so many cases where practicality+convenience overrules “natural” duty call. Parents did not drum in, in these cases but can’t vouch that drumming in would yield a different result.

    i guess it is how one teaches the children filial piety. Some show by example, ie taking care of the grandparents, and would be good if the preoccupied youngsters observed this as a virtue to carry on. But to many kids these days, they may have different ideas and think that once they leave the nest, all will have the right to their own space to lead independent lives. Surely will suffice with just an occasional hello or only when someone falls critically ill.
    Parents must have the same expectations so that all are happy. Western families seem fine with this, all holding sacred to their own space. Modern Asian families are moving into this direction too.

    As elaborated by xy on the previous comment, it is the respect, the sensitivity we must exercise when we talk with old folks. The patience and the thoughts we hold for them. The Dao of Filial Piety which is such a lost subject. How do we teach these to the ipod-minded restless and distracted young fellas ?
    I would still drum in ! Fairness is not the question here. Responsibility is. Anyway, I always tell the kids that the world is an unfair place to begin with !

  16. ch, mf :

    on fairness and choice, I will leave with you some realization by past intellectuals to ponder :

    1. by Qing Dynasty historian 趙翼 (“zhao yi”) :
    . 少時學語苦難圓  只道功夫半未全
    . 到老方知非力取  三分人事七分天

    roughly means :
    “… i was struggling with learning when i was young,
    . thought then i wasn’t putting in enough;
    . it occurs to me that wasn’t the case, many years later when i am old,
    . for it is 3/10 effort and 7/10 fate….”

    2. 蘇東坡 (“su dong po”), the great Song Dynasty poet, has this to say :

    “… 書到今生讀已遲…” , i.e.,

    “… it is too late to read books/learn in this life … ”

    I went to Mongolian desert couple of years ago and occasionally we would see a struggling wildflower, struggling to live under the harsh condition. I had to say the flower was the most beautiful.

    That’s fairness, I guess.

  17. Jesus replied, the most important commandment is to love the lord your God with all your heart and all your soul, and the second is to love your neighbor as yourself.

    The first part to love God is so that your alignment is correct, so that what comes out from you will be a reciprocation of God’s love. The 2nd part, to love your neighbour summarizes all the 10 commandments.

    Eg. X & Y. If X loves Y, X will not say anything bad about Y, will no steal from Y, will not covet Y’s stuffs, will not kill, etc…

    If X loves Y, in a playful game of chess, X may just let Y win, so that Y will be happy. If X saw Y sleeping naked, X will quickly cover Y & not go tell others to come & see or video. If X heard others speak ill of Y, X will try to clarify Y’s reputation. If Y really did something very wrong, X will help Y to overcome, instead of gossiping to others.

    In short, no need so many rules, if there is love. Because of lack of love, got to make so many rules to address the many evils that resulted from it.

    Got to go home now…..sorry, can’t continue….! :)

  18. YL,
    Better go home and love tour family!!
    The rest of the world can wait!

  19. YL,
    Better go home and love your family!!
    The rest of the world can wait!

  20. CH & All, thanks for your patience….if really….there are people out there waiting for my continuation story… :) hehehe….

    Continue…..

    Similiarly, for ‘loved’ ones, there are written laws in the heart, as to what is the right thing to do. However, due to love, being broken down, the right thing to do, is not done. Hence, laws got to be enacted to bring order. Solving the problem, is not by making more laws, but to find the root of the problem & tackle it specifically. Since the problem arose due to lack of love, then the antidote should be to inject more love & every wrong thing, will soon allign itself to the right camp.

    An empty oil lamp, cannot give out light, it has to be filled up first. The fuller it is, the brighter the light that will shine forth. Similarly, a person devoid of love, cannot give out love. Also, one injected with the wrong kind of love, will create heartbreaks too.

    The source of love is God, for God is Love! Hence, if you love God with all your heart, mind & soul, you will be saturated with love. Then you can love others with this pure love.

    God’s love is a love without a hook. It gives & does not draw back something, or it has no ulterior motive/intention. Look at the hook….thrust it forward & pull back, the hook will pull back something that belongs to the other party. It will always take something back, because of it’s nature- a hook. That ‘thing’ that it takes back, can be in the form of anything; material, emotions, tangible & intangible things.

    Our world is fast depleting in love…see the criminal law books, getting thicker & thicker….Once a law is given, man is quick to find loop holes to go around it! So, what’s the point of spending much time in devising more laws? Why not concentrate in putting more love into our children? Saturate them with love, so they cannot help it, but to give out love. Children who are loved deeply, need an avenue to let this love be expressed out, for their own healthy development. That’s why they need pets, dolls, etc…. They will pour out their love over them which you can see the depth of it, when a pet dies or the doll got broken. However, a child devoid of love but showered with these, will likely to break the dolls or abuse the pets.

    It’s really that simple….to give love….err….off course the right kind of love! :) Forgiving one another is an expression of love. Not seeking revenge for wrongs done but pray for the other person, will change the violent atmosphere. We can start somewhere & persist, persevere. Don’t expect all the results of your kindness will beget kindness in return. Man has gone a long way without love, hence to get them to love again is not so easy. But if they turn to Jesus….it will be that easy! :)

    That’ all….I think….got to prepare to go home….to love my family….hehehehe…..!

  21. YL,
    Did you know you have the talent of putting things in simple words so that others understand easily? I wouldn’t have been able to do that. Your children must be lucky. They can get you to explain things to them in easy -to-understand terms.
    Guess we are all given special gifts!

    Well, in between loving your family, share some love on this blog too.
    It is nice to read xy2’s postings and everyone’s comments especially after a hard day’s work and you just want to drift away a bit and ponder over some “lighter” things [although sometimes, xy2 gives us some really hard topics!! :) ]

  22. Thanks CH for your encouragement! Appreciate it! :)

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